My Big Idea Part 2: What I Would Do With $50 Million

The Cost of Production (featuring Avery Trufelman)

Feb 05, 2024

I didn’t get into audio storytelling to get rich.

I got into audio storytelling because I fell in love with the sound of my grandparents' voices. In 1995, I interviewed them about their holocaust survival story for a college anthropology course, and I brought along a tape recorder. I wanted to be fully present for our conversation, rather that have my face buried in a notebook, furiously scribbling down every word. I loved the idea that their thick German accents would be captured on tape, along with all of the nuance, humor, and emotion that came with their memories. And I loved that their story would be preserved for me to listen back to later.

Recording my grandparents ultimately led me to journalism school, where I learned the nuts and bolts of reporting and got deeper into the world of narrative audio. I learned how to record field tape and layer it into my stories with narration and archival material. I learned how to layer in music. It was all so compelling to me, such a rich way to tell true stories. I never expected, or even imagined, that telling stories in this way would provide anything other than a serviceable living. And that was just fine with me.

There were about 50 people in my J-school graduating class, and we all went out into the world to tell good, true stories. A few of us sought out higher paying jobs in Silicon Valley or similar (Google especially was offering higher salaries back then to build up Google News), but most of us just wanted to make good journalism. And we ticked along like that for a good long while.

Then came “the dumb money.” Serial, Gimlet, and Radiotopia all started in 2014, putting podcasting on the map. I entered “big podcasting” when I was hired to produce Revisionist History in 2016. And it just got bigger from there. Investments poured in. Podcast executives like me started to earn big salaries.

You can read about my salary history in this post.
Bottom line, I was earning $214K/year when I left my job at the end of 2022. But that’s not even close to what some executives were / are making, even at non-profits like WNYC.
I’ve heard this story many times and these numbers still shock me.

Hosts also started making big salaries, starting with Amy Schumer’s $1M deal with Spotify back in 2018, which kicked off an unsustainable trend and led to a lot of disgruntled mid-level production staff who reasonably felt the inequity of being paid so little relative to their hosts, especially when the producers were doing the bulk of the work. This is nothing new in Hollywood, but it was relatively new to our little corner of the media universe where the best hosts had previously been not-very-well-known reporters with great stories to tell.

As production houses grew, overhead costs grew with them. And in order to turn a profit, executives needed to charge more for the shows they made. In addition to hefty host fees and executive salaries, companies added pricey service fees to offset those costs. They also had to earn more from advertising which led companies to ask their teams for more episodes, which in turn increased production costs and led to a vicious cycle of unsustainable production, unrealistic download expectations, and disappointed advertisers. This is an oversimplification to be sure, but I don’t think it’s wrong.

Cut to last week (Feb 1) and this double-whammy news - on top of all the terrible 2023 news.

First, Pineapple Street lays off 25% of its staff. This is awful, but it’s not a total surprise after their parent company, Audacy, declared bankruptcy last month, even though they said they wouldn’t do layoffs… 🤔

But this—this is the one that really gets me.

The Messenger is shuttering after less than a year, having raised and squandered $50 million in part because they spent $8M on offices in Florida, Washington, D.C., and New York, and who knows how much on “a sizzle reel scored by the Dire Straits hit “Money for Nothing.”

SERIOUSLY?? Most of the layoffs that have happened recently are the result of many years of misguided spending. But for a company that just formed last year, surely there could have been some important lessons learned from the mistakes of their peers. To me this smacked of an unbelievable waste of a truly generous investment.

This got me thinking about my big idea, and how I would use that kind of money.
$50 million could go a long way, if spent judiciously, with purpose and with a larger goal in mind.

As a reminder, in Part 1 of this series I laid out a proposal for a cooperatively-run podcast network where creators can make a sustainable living and shows are monetized through a grassroots salesforce. The idea is to provide marketing and sales support for existing shows so creators can focus on what they do best. I’ve received a lot of support for this concept, but one big question remains:

How will I pay for production?

Most especially, how will I pay for the kind of deeply-reported, narrative rich stories that made me fall in love with this medium in the first place—the kinds of stories that move people and change lives? This is, of course, the most expensive and time-consuming form of storytelling. But it’s also the source of some of the most important and impactful journalism out there - and it’s the kind of storytelling we stand to lose if we don’t figure this out.

In order to understand how we're going to pay the costs, we first have to understand what kind of costs we're talking about. So let’s break it down—starting with the salaries.

Note: Some of the most informative and important information about production costs and salaries has been done by AIR. You can see their rate guides here.

In the survey I did a couple months ago, I asked respondents what they would consider a fair baseline salary for both entry level and more experienced producers.

Here are those results:

Forms response chart. Question title: What do you think is a fair baseline salary for entry-level audio storytellers?. Number of responses: 182 responses.

Forms response chart. Question title: What do you think is a fair baseline salary for audio storytellers with 10+ years experience?. Number of responses: 181 responses.

Of course these numbers are going to shift somewhat based on where the producer lives and if they have to pay for healthcare and other life necessities, but in general these results are in line with my own thinking. Don’t get me wrong - I loved my previous salary, but ~$120-150K FTE is good and feels fair, especially if I’m not working myself into the ground.

Now - let’s talk about who is needed to make a long-form narrative show.

In this example, let’s assume we’re spending one year making a 10-episode investigative series. (Theoretically this could be done faster, but hear me out.)

When I teach podcast production, I talk about needing only two people to make a podcast. One person to basically come up with the idea and do all the reporting, production, and hosting, and one person to tell them if what they’re doing will make sense to anyone who isn’t them (essentially, your editor). In reality, even the best host/producers I know need a talented engineer and/or sound designer to make the episodes sing, and some kind of support staff to help with all manner of things (research, fact checking, booking, DAW layups, etc).

So for the purposes of this example, let’s make the following assumptions:

The host and producer are not the same person. Most excellent hosts need a great team behind them so they can focus on the challenging and vulnerable work of being in front of the mic.
The host is not a celebrity and will be paid similarly to a producer or editor at the top of their game.
The host and producer are working full time on this project.
There’s a half-time editor on the project - someone who can help guide the narrative and review all the scripts and mixes, but who is not in the weeds day in and day out.
There’s a ¾ time assistant producer on the project providing all kinds of production support.
There’s a ¼ time sound designer / engineer who comes in at the mix / mastering stage and makes the project sound its best.
There is no separate showrunner or executive producer. The host / producer are running their own show 🙂

So that’s five people. Let’s say two of those people are earning a top salary, two are somewhere in the middle, and one is entry level.

Host / Reporter (full time) = $150K
Lead Producer (full time) = $120K
Editor (half time) = $110K FTE or $55K
Sound Designer / Mix Engineer (¼ time) = $100K FTE or $25K
Assistant Producer (¾ time) = $60K FTE or $45K

Personnel total = $395K

Now let’s talk about the other things you need in order to make a high-quality long-form narrative investigative series.

First - the basics: a good computer and a recording kit. I’m offering the following summary, but obviously you can shop around and everyone has their own preferences. I’m also assuming that one kit will serve the whole team. Most producers already have their own computers and most engineers come with their own equipment as well. I don’t want to ignore these costs, but it’s not like you need to buy five of each of these things. One set will make my point.

There’s great information about all things tool-related at Transom.org.

MacBook Pro = $2000
Sony MDR Headphones = $120
Zoom H6 Field Recorder = $300
Rode shotgun mic/mount/cable = $300
A really nice voiceover mic = $400 (but you could get a much less expensive one and be totally fine)
Plus miscellaneous cables, pop filters, sound proofing, etc.

Basic equipment total = ~$3K

Additional costs will change for every project, but here are some common expenses:

One original theme song = $5000
Additional original scoring and/or library music = $5000
Studio Rentals and/or Tape Syncs = $4000 (20 hours @ $200 / hour)
Archival licensing fees = $2000 (note this can get VERY expensive, more on that another time)
Travel expenses = $2000
Software licenses (Descript + ProTools) = $1000
Miscellaneous (occasional lunches for your team, an in-person meeting or two, end-of-production gifts of gratitude - all valuable line items) = $1000

Other production costs total = ~20K

So we’re now at $418K, but I haven’t included any legal support. And I haven’t included the very important marketing and promotion fees (which can end up around ~$25K each). So let’s round up to a nice, even…

GRAND TOTAL: $500K

I’ve worked on plenty of shows that cost more than this, but I think that’s a fair fee for a top-notch production. And with the right team, great work can be done.

Now let’s look at a completely different scenario - one in which a single creator does everything for a show: all the ideating and booking and interviewing and writing and mixing and sound design. AND all the marketing and promotion. What’s the cost of that?

I’m going to turn this part of the newsletter over to Avery Trufelman, a brilliant host / producer and the creator of Articles of Interest. She first created the series while on staff at 99% Invisible, but she now does it as a labor of love, with support from Radiotopia.

Here’s Avery:

I haven't always been alone in this endeavor—I have worked with editors and engineers in the past (some really stellar ones!)—but in 2023, for the first time, I was entirely on my own. The challenge was that I had to make 16 episodes by myself with a budget of around 75K.
An Articles of Interest episode takes forever to make. Usually it takes six months to a year to slowly gather all the research and interviews. As a friend said "wow, you really take a year to research it and then you crank it out in a week." Pretty much. I just balance a bunch of stories at once and try to keep them all rolling.
The biggest cost last year was paying collaborators. In 2023 I really needed new ideas and inspiration, so I worked with a few friends, many of whom had never podcasted before. We went through every step of the reporting process together (reading, interview prep, etc), and then recorded a joint conversation which I then edited and sound designed and mixed, often inserting my own tracking and shaping. I paid them each $1,500.00, which is about 32% of the cost of the budget per episode. I saw it mostly as an honorarium and a gesture. I wish I could give them more.
My other costs are that I pay for Pro Tools, but a friend who worked at Descript gave me a year for free. That was a real lifesaver. And my gear (which I had already had for a long time) is basically a Zoom F3 and a shotgun mic, as well as a Zoom H2n for the road. When I record in my closet, I just use a Scarlett 2i2 port and a shotgun mic to record right into the computer.
The travel budget was relatively modest, mostly because the times that I traveled (to LA, SF, and Toronto) I did talks and events that paid my way. The only real splashy reporting trip was to DC with me and a friend. We just took the train down and stayed in an Airbnb together (I slept on the couch). Honestly, the biggest cost of the show is just living in New York (ha!) but being here means that I can keep most of my in-person interviews local.
The magical x factor is time. I just spend a lot of time on all of the stories, and I don't really budget it out - I mean, I'll just stay up all night working on it until it's right. In terms of editing… mostly I just have to show the piece to someone, whether I get comprehensive notes or not. I once had an "intern" (in quotes because he was actually a brilliant NYU masters grad student who I consider a friend and a colleague but just needed a credit for his program), and sometimes he would look at a script and offer a suggestion or two. And I sometimes read a script out loud to my boyfriend, or share an early draft with a collaborator. It’s an admittedly light-touch editing style, but I just lean into it.
I also have to acknowledge that Roman Mars [creator of 99PI] gave me a lot. Not just the experience and the training and the seed funding and, eventually, the IP, but actually all the music. Roman purchased a theme song and, over the course of two seasons under 99PI, around 40 custom songs by my friend Rhae Royal. I basically use these 40 songs over and over again. They're just so good! But that's a huge part of the budget. I think this is replicable, because I remember in the very early days of 99PI when Roman used to just call musicians he liked and asked if he could use their music on the show. But I think the world is a little different now. Anyway big shout out to Roman Mars - he's just the best.

Avery also adds that the podcast isn’t her sole source of income. She also edited Foretold, a narrative series from the LA Times, and hosts Hark Daily for an app that helps you discover new podcasts. She also has a popular Substack and a book contract. (I mentioned she’s a superstar, right?)

So what’s the takeaway from all this?

I think shows that cost $500K per year should exist in the world because deeply-reported, sound-rich long-form storytelling matters. I think the producers and other talent who make those shows should get a fair wage and not have to fear for their jobs when economic headwinds change. And truth be told, $500K isn’t that much money. In the film / TV world, it’s pocket change. And I’m willing to bet there’s millions of dollars being spent on film and TV productions that have a fraction of the reach of a well-told podcast.

This Netflix report, released in December, is worth checking out. It’s not an apples-to-apples comparison but it contains a lot of food for thought about the value of various productions relative to their reach/impact. Here’s how they phrase it:

Success on Netflix comes in all shapes and sizes, and is not determined by hours viewed alone. We have enormously successful movies and TV shows with both lower and higher hours viewed. It’s all about whether a movie or TV show thrilled its audience — and the size of that audience relative to the economics of the title.

And what about Avery? I think talented people like her should have production support and reasonable travel budgets and not have to pick up side gigs to make ends meet.

So what happens if we don’t figure out how to pay for long-form storytelling? We already know that hundreds of people lose their jobs and beloved shows get canceled. We already know that always-on chat shows become the norm, and our feeds fill up with homogenous celebrity-driven blather.

But here’s what else happens: up and coming new voices decide there’s no place for them in this industry and take their talents elsewhere. Our news becomes less thoughtful, less nuanced, and less emotional. We lose the story. We lose context. We may even lose the humans entirely: Podcastle and Wondercraft both secured millions of dollars in funding last week to support their AI content creation platforms.

Most importantly, we will lose all this at a time of extreme polarization and clear divisiveness in our society and culture, when the conversations and topics that narrative podcasts engage with are more important than ever.

It’s evident to me that in addition to creating a cooperative network in which existing shows can get marketing and sales support and equitably share the revenue, we also need to support production. I’m not yet entirely sure what form that takes but…

Remember that $50 MILLION dollars The Messenger squandered in its one year of existence? With that kind of investment I could fund A HUNDRED long-form narrative shows. Or I could support a talent like Avery at a very fair and reasonable $150K / year salary for more than THREE HUNDRED YEARS.

So how am I going to pay for production? Surely there are well-resourced people out there who believe long-form narrative is worth saving. Let’s talk.

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